Episode 5 More of the Little White Lady

The Second part of my conversation with my therapist. We get into topics like sexual misconduct, shame, and personal recovery.

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SPEAKER_00 0:26

This podcast is meant to be about the journey from life-changing setbacks to restoration. This journey takes on many forms and encompasses many different stories and topics, including addiction, prison, abuse, loss, illness, and other setbacks. The primary method is not so much the setbacks, but the personal, mental, spiritual, societal, physical, and other forms of becoming needed to emerge some of these challenges between new hope. And better version of ourselves. But against all odds, that is because of the journey. But the overriding thing that it is not the fault that define us, but rather the getting up. That's the title. Miles Behind, Miles Ahead. So I want to switch right now to uh to another part of my personal journey, um, which is uh kind of touchy, uh, and that's sexual misconduct. Um, and we're gonna start off uh asking a question. Um in one of my earlier podcasts, I talk about um my first sexual experience at a pretty early age. So um the question then is does one having experimented with sexual activity in early adolescence contribute to later maladaptive sexual behavior?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Okay, so if I'm if I'm understanding this idea that uh the relationship between them being fused of causation equals correlation. Um my opinion would be that there is not a casual inevitability. It is it is not a definite, this is not a for sure, because we know people that have experienced sexual misconduct in adolescence or or young adult or young childhood, and they don't become offenders. So to say that it would be definite, I don't think that's fair. Um, but to say that the exposure and experiences um and maybe even experimentation of such like you're asking at a young age when it's age inappropriate is absolutely going to have impacts later into patterns of relationship and intimacy, especially if a couple things do or don't happen. If it's positively reinforced, that's gonna have further impacts. Um, if it goes unaddressed, so a lot of times people will isolate and do it in private, and so it goes unaddressed, those are only going to add an additional level to an already adolescent who is experiencing something that's hurting them. So increasing the likelihood of maladaptive behavior in some capacity, but it doesn't define it, it's more about is it reinforced, does it go unaddressed? But it's not always the inevitable.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Gotcha. Um so my thoughts are that uh that I have an addictive personality. Sex, drugs, and gambling are all a part of my story. They've all led to some unfortunate consequences. I know from being a part of the recovering community that these things often go together. So I want to briefly touch on this. Um, and I'll cover it more in a in a later episode, but um, in your professional experience, is having multiple addictions common? And um does having multiple addictions often stem back to the same root cause?

SPEAKER_01 4:38

I that might be the the powerful piece that a lot of a lot of audience and listeners would want to explore into on any end of it because it's not it's not uncommon. It's very uncommon. We we're repeating themes of our less well versions. Um, and you and I have talked about that, and I've spent a lot of times with clients about the same thing of in the ANA community. I'm sure some of us have heard that whole term of like you're sober from the neck up. Like you you can cognitively explain and understand your way out of using or abusing in some capacity, but it's one of those things not to put the NA and AA community down. I'm still here for it. Um, but it's tough because I see it where the mind and the body and the soul is more like a house. And so, yeah, you can go put, you can go put a patch on a part of the house and the leak will stop. But if you don't get into the crawl space or the attic or the basement and figure out why leaks are happening, it's just gonna pop up somewhere else. And so I think it's really important when we look at someone's wellness and we're troubleshooting a siloed behavior to be very thoughtful in is it a siloed behavior or is it an opportunity that if we work on this one and abstain from that, we're just gonna have a leak somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

So tell me, so explain siloed behavior for me, please.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

So you got the person who uh they just going to gamble to gamble, they don't have to worry about financial things, um, it's not tied to some scarcity or abundance mentality. They're going for fun, freedom, they can, um, and they're just not good at it. They don't want to accept that they are not good at gambling, which is different from the person who is using it from chasing a dopamine high. Um, I've watched family members do it and win big and lose big. So my the belief is I can recover and it's worth it. Um, so those are different. Same behavior, but we're looking at it from a different lens because now if we get on the on the secondary person, if we get rid of and abstain from gambling, but we haven't explored, like I said, that crawl space or the basement of the attic of going, but do you see how when you're when you're bored or you're not entertained, well now you're just at the strip club. So I'm glad you're allegedly saving money, but you're just now here. Or the person who has been in active addiction and sure they're not using street drugs, but they're overusing their prescribed medication. It's like, okay, well, I'm glad you're not using crack cocaine, but now you're running out of your Adderall because you're misusing that. And so I think it's very important to make sure that we examine less about a behavior being good or bad, and more about going, what's the driver underneath? What's the vehicle and some systematic emotions or set of emotions that may or may not be giving that permission, and you're not understanding how you may decline the invitation or not? Because you're right, otherwise, we could see a we could see a lazy Susan of just going from one thing to the next to the next, and some people might call that harm reduction, but it may be leading to multiple addictions or multiple maladaptive behaviors, and now we have more than one problem, and potentially off the same source. That's a good question. I think I think a lot of people deal with that too because they want it to be a behavior. If I stop doing this, I'll feel better, and maybe they do find success in that, but they don't always feel like they thought they were gonna feel. That's not part of your treatment plan. I didn't say you were gonna feel better right away. Right because the reason why you were doing it didn't feel good, which is why you were doing it.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

So that that that root cause is still there.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Yeah, right. It's it's kind of like um if you ever hear somebody talk about they relapsed and that they're part of their part of their um value set is not having secrecy. So maybe they tell their sponsor or their spouse or a best friend or their therapist or what have you. And oftentimes people be really surprised in our time together because while I am grateful for honesty and integrity, I'm more interested in what you must have been going through to relapse.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Gotcha. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Because if we spend our time talking about your relapse, I'm gonna hear the same story at a different venue with some different people. But if we get into right, but if we get into man, you would not have intentionally chosen that. So what was going on with you or not with you that led you to such a place that that would have become an option again? That's where the power is.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Very interestingly, um, in my conversation with some um substance abuse professionals, um I there was the same, the same discussion and uh and the same point of view. So yeah, I think that's uh that's pretty interesting. Um let's talk about my growth. Uh and and this is um the purpose for this is not so much about me and my ego, but about the fact that uh that growth happens um when you when you seek it. Um so uh like when I came to you, I was steeped in shame, as you know. And as best I can, um, I'm gonna take the audience on a pretty short trip through my journey out of shame. Um first to shame because it was overriding. You know, I had just recently gotten uh out of prison and uh uh for committing a sex offense. So the the the shame was overwhelming. Um and I've just recently gotten to a point where I feel back to normal in terms of my self-worth. Um and I always say that guilt is what I did and shame is what I think I am. Um so today I know that what I did is not who I am, right? I know that, right? Right, so I'm not wearing that today. Um, could you explain the relationship between shame and guilt? Um I think I think I've heard you say um that there is a relationship. Uh could you explain that?

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Yeah, that per that's one of my personal favorite therapeutic journeys to go on because I think it's a powerful one and can really set people free on how they visit with their emotions. Because when we look at when we look at shame, it's this innate belief that I am bad with a heavy emphasis on the am. Um, whereas when we look at guilt, it's more so looking at a message that offers an opportunity to go, you you have violated your values in some capacity. And whether it be someone else violated them, you violated them yourself, that message comes. So, to your point of shame is defining who we are, our character, our value, our worth as negative, as bad. Guilt is saying, this doesn't look like um your typical character value and worth. So, what are you doing, or what are you allowing? And how are we going to redirect? And that's a that's a big differential because the relationship then between them is with enough guilt, it would not be unfair to say someone is going to start to believe they are bad, and and it and it happens in small and big ways, you know. In big ways, to your point, we we are an offender, we are held accountable. That's a big way to go. Some people would go in one fail swoop, I am bad. But we also know that guilt over time cumulatively can create that same feeling. Look at report cards. Every time I get a report card, why you have a D? It's really not that hard. You must not be paying attention. Why you didn't study? What's going on here? And over time, it's like, well, I am bad, whether it's at a single subject, or I'm bad at school, or I'm bad at learning. And so we know that that relationship can be again, big T, one fail swoop. I went from I made an accountable mistake, and I need to figure that out, but it can also happen over time where I've made many, many miss, many, many mistakes, and now I believe I am bad, which is shame.

unknown 14:36

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Gotcha. Um, but so so is guilt ever a good thing?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Yeah, I mean, we don't uh you and I have talked about this, but just for audience purposes, all emotions need to visit. You know, we we joke around all the time. Emotions don't belong to us, they are not intended to be permanent residents, they are intended to visit. And that's the good ones that we that most of us enjoy or or try to enjoy, like joy and excitement and contentment. Um, and it's for the ones we don't, like guilt, jealousy, um, sadness. So I I use that often because it's important to distinguish. Because if the visitor of guilt is coming, and in that therapeutic process, I can learn how to use that visitor and and and actually visit with it. What's the message it comes with? How did you violate your values or someone else's? Where was the error? Where was the misstep? Now we're kind of getting into ongoing change and growth and acknowledgement with accountability and boundaries and amends and all that good repair work. And if you notice, a lot of that exists outside of us, and that's uncomfortable. But if we hold on to guilt without visiting, now we may or may not have a permanent residence of shame, which means I'm most likely going to not feel comfortable. I'm going to feel more unsafe visiting because I carry around this permanent resident, and that's no longer productive. Um, and so people end up visiting, having the permanent resident of shame. So now I'm I'm stuck, and maybe even inviting other emotions like hopelessness or um not worth living for, versus if I visit with guilt, that can be productive. I stepped on my values, I need to make amends and then set a boundary. That's not fun, it's not comfortable. But now that visitor leaves and I don't have permanent residence because they don't belong to me. They supposed to leave.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Gotcha. Um, so when I came home from prison, there were a lot of people who made it their business to let me know that they thought I was a pariah. More importantly, there were those who made it their business to let me know that they cared and that they loved me. I made the mistake of trying to win those people over who treated me poorly. All that did was give them more opportunities to put me down and batter my self-esteem. So the lesson I learned was to get with the people who want to build you up. The ones who want to constantly remind you of your bad choices can be loved from a distance. If they eventually come around, then fine. If not, then oh well. Uh, what would you suggest for people who are having to constantly deal with those that won't let them forget their mistakes?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Yeah, that that's that's one of the hardest parts of growth out of many things, especially those that have been offenders or perpetrators. Um, because they're they're having to acknowledge this reality that sometimes your growth is not going to run parallel to other people moving forward in that same capacity. And that that may or may not have anything to do with you, and you may or may not be able to control it or, like you said, convince or influence whatsoever. Um, because that that's their journey. Um, and so we're we're really looking at it of part of the accountability is accepting that we we can't control other people's timelines and reactions, even if we are doing it for ourselves to go it. Think about uh different steps that we do in AA or NA, or think about different modalities and therapy where we go, okay, now we need to make amends or take accountability. That's that's for us. That's for us to say this is important to me. I'm doing this because it aligns with me and my values and my change system. Um, but at the same time, it may or may not land. Um, and so a lot of times my my thoughts or feedback is become okay with your story. If you can look at your story and hold yourself accountable and see the errors and transgressions and hurt, and deliver that and how you live and how you make amends and do your repair work, you hope that it aligns with someone else's feelings around that story, that their experience was either them themselves or by proxy. Um, I think the bigger piece uh on other people's end, and I'm sure some of the audience or others may have a qualm with this. Um, but oftentimes I'll ask people what's what is the difference between accountability and humiliation? Like if that person is doing the work, that doesn't mean you have to forgive and forget and just move forward and build this beautiful relationship with that person, and you don't have to have them live in perpetual humiliation either. That is also a choice. Um, and I think that's really hard because if someone has been hurt and they have been a victim, and there have been grave impacts, and you know both sides of that, you don't get to forget. This isn't men in black where they wave the little wand and like blink it in front of your face. That doesn't come even with the best of repair work. Um, so I try to encourage people to say your repair work can't be on someone else's timeline, and they may or may not be at a space to choose between moving forward and continuing to be a part of a problem.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

And and that's that's hard because we don't want to get into convincing and marketing and propaganda if we're okay with our story.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Right. Um, and and and you know, and I and I have to acknowledge that people are there, right? People are where they are. I have some family members who are where they are, and are and and they're not having anything to do with me, right? Um some of my family members who uh before uh I committed the offense were um were really, really uh respectful of me. And you know, I still love them, right? I still uh allow them, although I don't have the power to allow or disallow, I understand that they are where they are. And to your point, there's not a whole lot of anything I can do to change that. So um if they if their if their choice is to be um uh is to try to humiliate me or or to to dehumanize who it is that they do or condemn, then um I'm gonna not be around them as much as I can, right? Because I don't have to be. Um I don't have to sign up for that. Um at the same time understanding that they have their own journey, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:16

So kind of because what what we part what we parsing out is behaviors and actions being fused with worth and value. To go if I if I have If I have made you a victim to something and I am working on that repair work, like I said, that doesn't mean you don't get to continue to create have distance from me or not have a relationship with me. That is a choice and one that people you know effectively execute all the time to go, thank you for making amends. I still choose to have zero contact. Um, the difference is is when it gets refused, and even though I don't have contact, I'm still, like you said, um degrading you, creating um obstacles for you to move forward in the future, um encouraging shame to visit you again, um, creating obstacles for other people to make their own decisions about your repair work or lack thereof. Um so it's almost trying to refuse something that may that someone else may or may not have just worked really hard to parse apart.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Yep, yep, yep. Um so uh I have some other stuff about um I I typically I try to to offer some hope to people. Um is there any conventional wisdom for those who have had setbacks that might help them along their journey? And when I say setbacks, I don't use the word trauma because I'm not a therapist. And uh and so in a professional capacity, I can't say trauma. I don't want to say trauma because I don't want to I don't want to have to deal with the the pushback, but I will say setbacks, and and people can call it what they want.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Um, but but is there any wisdom you might impart upon people that that'll help them along their journey that have had these setbacks uh in a very general term because I know there's lots of different types of those things, yeah, and and I I think setbacks is a great term because it it really normalizes a lot of what I have tried to encourage just humans in general to see of it's a meaningful change process. You don't you don't have to to quantify or qualify the desire to change, and so a setback, like you said, it can mean something really small to someone else, but really impactful to somebody else, and just even normalizing that setbacks are we need meaningful change. We may not like it, like I said. So I think whether somebody, like you said, is recovering from trauma or addiction or um the loss of a loved one, mental health struggles, progress is just not going to be linear. Somewhere along that pathway of visiting with emotions and trying to prevent them from becoming permanent residence. You need those, you need those support systems in place because it allows you to better understand what is uncomfortable versus unsafe. And if you're trying to do that all on your own, whether it be to pride or fear or shame or whatever, you're doing yourself a major injustice. And so, conventionally, I mean, I'm always gonna be a proponent of therapy. And there's so many different types of providers, there's so many different types of settings, there's so many different types of modalities, um uh bringing in other things of wellness. You know, some people pair it with religion, and that's important to them. Some people are pairing it with body work and that's important to them, and so there's so many opportunities that aren't this conventional way to do therapy, quote unquote, um, that I wish people were more curious about and willing to examine, because you're right, it's gonna be uncomfortable, but that doesn't deem it unsafe. Um, um, the other thing I think I would take into account is this idea of allowing it to be outside your body. If it is just creating narratives and uh medical GI issues or headaches or what have you, find something that allows it to be outside of your body. Um, and that doesn't always have to be talking, you know. Like I said, we've got body movements and we've got the power of healing in so many other ways. Um and so understanding that conventionally, I think a lot of people thought it was about healing being a noun. We're gonna we're gonna see these people in these places and do these things. We're gonna noun it. And if we can do that, um, it's it's gonna get better. And what I would really like to for people to start exploring is that it is more of a verb. It's gonna be verbs, we're gonna ache, we're gonna cry, we're gonna celebrate, we're gonna move, we're gonna regress, we're gonna be all of these things that are verbs within those nouns. Um, and so taking time to do the verbs in, like you said, uh a repetition way, um, get to know how it feels on you, um support systems again in the current climate. I think the the people that are proponents of wellness are looking for opportunities that get away from what insurance do you have, what's your gender, what's your race, and going, oh, you need support. Here's a group. Oh, you need to do some recovery work. We're meeting at this coffee shop. Um, you don't want to talk to me, you want to talk to this other person, let me connect you without question. Um just a more of a resilience to engage people in a different way without it being seen as there's something wrong with you. I was telling one of my clients um unconventionally the other day, really quickly. I was telling one of them the other day, I said, I want you to go to Dollar Tree, and I want you to buy a plate. There's a cheap white plate, and I want you to get your Sharpie out, and I want you to write on there everything you just shared with me, all of it. Um, and I said, and then I want you to go find a place, not other people around or anything like that, and I just want you to smash it. I want you to drop it and break it and let it fall all over the place, and I just want you to sit for a second and take it in. You don't have to write about it, nothing yet, but just feel stay, stay present, stay in your body, and then we're gonna clean it up because we don't want to injure other people. We're gonna clean it up and put it in the trash, and we're gonna move on. And the only thing I wanted that client to take in is he had choices. He could talk about what he wrote on the plate, he could talk about how it felt to do it, but most importantly, I wanted him to examine his body before, during, and afterwards. And those those things can be conventional, like you said, but there's also lots of opportunities of knowing what works for you and what you value and putting them into practice.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Gotcha. Uh I a big thing for me, um in my community and culture and probably in the south as well, is religion. So I happen to think that religion pairs with things, right? I I'm a more of a spiritual than religion person, religious person, but I think religion pairs with things, whatever it is, whether it's therapy or um or treatment or or whatever type of thing, whatever it is you're trying to recover from. What I struggle with is people who have these um sometimes uh the blind faith thing, right? And and I talk about this with some substance abuse counselors, is you know, um all you gotta do is pray, um uh all you gotta do is uh is uh go to church uh and nothing else, and you'll be just fine. And I think that that mentality, because you know, if I if I put it in the terms of my spirituality, is that God put therapists here the same way that God put hospitals and treatment centers and whatever else here, right? And so um I think that it's harmful to only think that way because um it's like having diabetes and trying to pray it away without taking your insulin. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Yeah, for sure, because what you're acknowledging is whether it's God or um karma or the universe, uh circumstance, what we're acknowledging is something that is bigger than us that exists and its impact, and that that we have a buy-in to it, and whatever that may or may not be for us, and what are the effects, and how do we want to use it? How do we want to make it productive? And so you're right, some people come in and be like, Well, if you just pray, it's like okay, and then what? Because then we may be looking at religious trauma to go. If I grew up in a household where, well, just pray, just pray, we gotta keep our prayers going, but trauma kept happening, well then how was that productive? And so now we're looking at a different type of trauma, or you know, this idea of everything happens for a reason or there's a plan. It's like, so what am I doing here then? Am I not part of the plan? If the plan is for me, I am in fact part of the plan then. Um, so you bring up a good point of going, how do we coexist with things that we have a belief in or recognize exist outside of us, but still be an active participant? Um, because to your point, if we if we only do the former, then we're not an active participant. And so we we see that if we now, and if we check the box, then we are entitled to results. So if if I if I go to the gym, then I am entitled to be physically fit. No, you're not, not necessarily. You know, if I if I don't smoke, I am entitled to not get lung cancer. Not necessarily. And so the premise is here true, too, is if religion or spirituality is important to you, that is a part of someone's wellness and overall just fortitude of humanness, but it is not the part.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

And I think that's that's important for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

Well, Elise, uh, we're out of time. Uh really good episode, actually. Really good couple of episodes. Um, I appreciate your time today, and thank you so much for impacting my life.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Yes, ma'am. So, our next episode we will have some subject matter experts talk about substance abuse and recovery. Thanks for listening. See you soon.